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Post by Ramrod on Aug 4, 2021 20:12:49 GMT
Having monitored us last season, KJ would've known from the outset he couldn't use Cissé. Except in the unimportant cup games where he could spare the squad players. But he becomes an expensive player for that. Cisse just didn’t work for the Ross system, let’s face it not much did. We never got the best out of him. From What we know of KJ, Cisse is just not his type of player. Best solution and off the wage budget. Getting in someone more appropriate is on the cards. Poor old Ross. It's hardly surprising that Cissé just didn't work for the Ross system when you consider he could never get himself out of first gear. So it's hardly surprising that Cissé isn't KJ's type of player either, not even for "unimportant cup games". Who's type of player is he, I wonder?
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Post by jimbo1983 on Aug 4, 2021 20:25:22 GMT
Except in the unimportant cup games where he could spare the squad players. But he becomes an expensive player for that. Cisse just didn’t work for the Ross system, let’s face it not much did. We never got the best out of him. From What we know of KJ, Cisse is just not his type of player. Best solution and off the wage budget. Getting in someone more appropriate is on the cards. Poor old Ross. It's hardly surprising that Cissé just didn't work for the Ross system when you consider he could never get himself out of first gear. So it's hardly surprising that Cissé isn't KJ's type of player either, not even for "unimportant cup games". Who's type of player is he, I wonder?
But Ross did get the best out of him during the loan spell. He was great for us during that time. So to say Ross didn't get the best out of him is a little unfair on Ross. Things changed when he signed. Nobody will know the reason for that, cisse gave up... Perhaps.... Ross tweaked the tactics... Perhaps.... Cisse couldn't settle in the area... Perhaps.... Team around him changed...perhaps.... No fans in stadium... Perhaps Could of been anything really. It's a shame it didn't as he is decent but we move on. KJ has different ideas and in KJ we trust
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Post by dohnut on Aug 4, 2021 21:17:40 GMT
Poor old Ross. It's hardly surprising that Cissé just didn't work for the Ross system when you consider he could never get himself out of first gear. So it's hardly surprising that Cissé isn't KJ's type of player either, not even for "unimportant cup games". Who's type of player is he, I wonder?
But Ross did get the best out of him during the loan spell. He was great for us during that time. So to say Ross didn't get the best out of him is a little unfair on Ross. Things changed when he signed. Nobody will know the reason for that, cisse gave up... Perhaps.... Ross tweaked the tactics... Perhaps.... Cisse couldn't settle in the area... Perhaps.... Team around him changed...perhaps.... No fans in stadium... Perhaps Could of been anything really. It's a shame it didn't as he is decent but we move on. KJ has different ideas and in KJ we trust He came in and played his natural game. And did well. Took him a while to get used to the Ross system. Once he did he became poor.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2021 8:01:50 GMT
Some players come in and pull the wool over people’s eyes and that’s where proper scouting comes in. Some players have to be watched many times to assess there strengths and weaknesses and some don’t. In this particular case I feel that the coaching and management had a lot to do with it. However that also applies to most of last years team IMO but that’s water under the bridge now, we move on, however I do feel that this year different circumstances will be holding the team back 🙊
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Post by Ramrod on Aug 5, 2021 9:22:17 GMT
But Ross did get the best out of him during the loan spell. He was great for us during that time. So to say Ross didn't get the best out of him is a little unfair on Ross. Things changed when he signed. Nobody will know the reason for that, cisse gave up... Perhaps.... Ross tweaked the tactics... Perhaps.... Cisse couldn't settle in the area... Perhaps.... Team around him changed...perhaps.... No fans in stadium... Perhaps Could of been anything really. It's a shame it didn't as he is decent but we move on. KJ has different ideas and in KJ we trust He came in and played his natural game. And did well. Took him a while to get used to the Ross system. Once he did he became poor. I admit to having a thing about Cissé. I didn't see him in his first season, when everyone lauded him to the skies, so I was desperately disappointed at what I saw in his second season, he was beyond poor. If we have to give Ross some blame, it's surely for his part in signing him in the first place. But OK, we move on, I'll close the book on this one.
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Post by redintheface on Aug 5, 2021 9:22:43 GMT
Some players come in and pull the wool over people’s eyes and that’s where proper scouting comes in. Some players have to be watched many times to assess there strengths and weaknesses and some don’t. In this particular case I feel that the coaching and management had a lot to do with it. However that also applies to most of last years team IMO but that’s water under the bridge now, we move on, however I do feel that this year different circumstances will be holding the team back 🙊 Be interested to hear your reasons behind your opinion that coaching and management had a particularly detrimental effect on Cisse at the O’s🐵👍
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Post by duvb on Aug 5, 2021 9:28:19 GMT
He came in and played his natural game. And did well. Took him a while to get used to the Ross system. Once he did he became poor. I admit to having a thing about Cissé. I didn't see him in his first season, when everyone lauded him to the skies, so I was desperately disappointed at what I saw in his second season, he was beyond poor. If we have to give Ross some blame, it's surely for his part in signing him in the first place. But OK, we move on, I'll close the book on this one. I dont like blaming individuals but there must have been more than one person involved in his permanent signing. However based on his performances during the loan period, it did look the right decision to sign him permanently. No idea why there was such a big gap in performance standards between the two periods. I would love to hear Ling's assessment as to why that happens as I dont believe he stopped trying.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2021 12:05:06 GMT
Some players come in and pull the wool over people’s eyes and that’s where proper scouting comes in. Some players have to be watched many times to assess there strengths and weaknesses and some don’t. In this particular case I feel that the coaching and management had a lot to do with it. However that also applies to most of last years team IMO but that’s water under the bridge now, we move on, however I do feel that this year different circumstances will be holding the team back 🙊 Be interested to hear your reasons behind your opinion that coaching and management had a particularly detrimental effect on Cisse at the O’s🐵👍 Afternoon Red, IMO a coaches job is to motivate his/her players to there best ability and to do that you have to have two main things. 1 a passion and a good attitude to what your doing,always encurage and know your players and how to deal with then as a team and individually. 2)gain there respect and show your players that you know what your talking about and gain there confidence. Having said that do you think that Cisse would have got that from Embleton or even Ling?. Personally I don’t think Jacket had much to do with Cisse as he’s not been at the club that long so I will leave it up to you who you think might have had the final say🙈
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Post by buffalobill on Aug 5, 2021 13:36:13 GMT
Bit of a bizarre post MM. KJ arrives at the club, Cisse is contracted to us for another year, it can only be KJ who has decided he is not what we need and arranged for him to go?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2021 14:07:56 GMT
Bit of a bizarre post MM. KJ arrives at the club, Cisse is contracted to us for another year, it can only be KJ who has decided he is not what we need and arranged for him to go? I don’t think so bill,to my knowledge I don’t think that Cisse played one game under KJ? Surly he would have had to have seen him play to make a judgment,however perhaps Jacket knew him by reputation being that he had played for Gillingham the same division as Portsmouth? But if I had to guess and it’s only a guess I would say it was on ML’s recommendation.🙈
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Post by buffalobill on Aug 5, 2021 14:16:59 GMT
Bit of a bizarre post MM. KJ arrives at the club, Cisse is contracted to us for another year, it can only be KJ who has decided he is not what we need and arranged for him to go? I don’t think so bill,to my knowledge I don’t think that Cisse played one game under KJ? Surly he would have had to have seen him play to make a judgment,however perhaps Jacket knew him by reputation being that he had played for Gillingham the same division as Portsmouth? But if I had to guess and it’s only a guess I would say it was on ML’s recommendation.🙈 So this is the Cisse that KJ took with the squad to Scotland. I think it is more likely he saw him train and play against Dundee and decided he didn’t have a place in his team.
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Post by dohnut on Aug 5, 2021 14:54:27 GMT
Bit of a bizarre post MM. KJ arrives at the club, Cisse is contracted to us for another year, it can only be KJ who has decided he is not what we need and arranged for him to go? I don’t think so bill,to my knowledge I don’t think that Cisse played one game under KJ? Surly he would have had to have seen him play to make a judgment,however perhaps Jacket knew him by reputation being that he had played for Gillingham the same division as Portsmouth? But if I had to guess and it’s only a guess I would say it was on ML’s recommendation.🙈 I’m sure KJ and ML discussed the player and with Cisse too no doubt. From what I’ve seen this far, KJ likes a certain type of player and Cisse just doesn’t fit. That doesn’t make Cisse a bad player, just one that won’t add anything to the KJ style of play. And to be honest, we got out fought so many times last season it’s refreshing to feel we won’t be this one. So it’s best for all concerned. I’m sure Cisse wants to play first team football and a year doing naff all don't do his career any favours either. A sensible outcome all round. Any costs involved in him going are unlikely to hit the wages budget so money available for suitable replacements. Good management in my opinion. Cisse can go somewhere where his style of play fits. Wish him well. I liked him as a player before he went off the boil.
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Post by jimbo1983 on Aug 5, 2021 15:04:16 GMT
I don’t think so bill,to my knowledge I don’t think that Cisse played one game under KJ? Surly he would have had to have seen him play to make a judgment,however perhaps Jacket knew him by reputation being that he had played for Gillingham the same division as Portsmouth? But if I had to guess and it’s only a guess I would say it was on ML’s recommendation.🙈 I’m sure KJ and ML discussed the player and with Cisse too no doubt. From what I’ve seen this far, KJ likes a certain type of player and Cisse just doesn’t fit. That doesn’t make Cisse a bad player, just one that won’t add anything to the KJ style of play. And to be honest, we got out fought so many times last season it’s refreshing to feel we won’t be this one. So it’s best for all concerned. I’m sure Cisse wants to play first team football and a year doing naff all don't do his career any favours either. A sensible outcome all round. Any costs involved in him going are unlikely to hit the wages budget so money available for suitable replacements. Good management in my opinion. Cisse can go somewhere where his style of play fits. Wish him well. I liked him as a player before he went off the boil. Agree with most of this. What I find slightly puzzling is that we would of had to of paid him off. I would estimate that being 60k+.... Probably more double that unless there is something in his pay off that if he finds a club within a certain period he doesn't get as much. We have said on other threads that we apparently are not buying players to save a month's salary... Of probably about 20-30k based on say 3 or 4 players. Are we really paying someone off 3x the amount to actually buying the players we need. Hence I don't believe that too much. I think its a by product of the situation but not what the plan is. I suspect we have identified players and are waiting for other factors rather than to save pennies when we spend more to offload players. KJ is experienced and I trust him and the board to there being a plan rather than penny pinching.
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Post by redintheface on Aug 5, 2021 15:46:52 GMT
Be interested to hear your reasons behind your opinion that coaching and management had a particularly detrimental effect on Cisse at the O’s🐵👍 Afternoon Red, IMO a coaches job is to motivate his/her players to there best ability and to do that you have to have two main things. 1 a passion and a good attitude to what your doing,always encurage and know your players and how to deal with then as a team and individually. 2)gain there respect and show your players that you know what your talking about and gain there confidence. Having said that do you think that Cisse would have got that from Embleton or even Ling?. Personally I don’t think Jacket had much to do with Cisse as he’s not been at the club that long so I will leave it up to you who you think might have had the final say🙈 Cheers🐵. Personally I was never a fan of Embleton as HC but I always thought he was at least passionate and tried to encourage the players! I could be wrong of course but I would imagine Cisse’s departure was very much prompted by his apparent relegation to the stiffs. Jackett comes across as a very affable and patient individual but having listened to and read several anecdotes told about him by various former players it’s very clear that any individual who doesn’t get on board with his approach is not destined to stay around very long.
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Post by MungO on Aug 5, 2021 16:00:47 GMT
I think you just need to look at the type of players retained and brought in to see that we're going to be at the very least a team of 110% grafters.
That isn't a feature of Cisse game. Similar in a way to Brophy and Wilkinson. Luxury players that started finger pointing when things weren't going right.
Actually think DJ would have fitted right in with the graft. But we've upgraded on him with Smyth and Drinan anyway.
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Post by dohnut on Aug 5, 2021 20:17:34 GMT
I’m sure KJ and ML discussed the player and with Cisse too no doubt. From what I’ve seen this far, KJ likes a certain type of player and Cisse just doesn’t fit. That doesn’t make Cisse a bad player, just one that won’t add anything to the KJ style of play. And to be honest, we got out fought so many times last season it’s refreshing to feel we won’t be this one. So it’s best for all concerned. I’m sure Cisse wants to play first team football and a year doing naff all don't do his career any favours either. A sensible outcome all round. Any costs involved in him going are unlikely to hit the wages budget so money available for suitable replacements. Good management in my opinion. Cisse can go somewhere where his style of play fits. Wish him well. I liked him as a player before he went off the boil. Agree with most of this. What I find slightly puzzling is that we would of had to of paid him off. I would estimate that being 60k+.... Probably more double that unless there is something in his pay off that if he finds a club within a certain period he doesn't get as much. We have said on other threads that we apparently are not buying players to save a month's salary... Of probably about 20-30k based on say 3 or 4 players. Are we really paying someone off 3x the amount to actually buying the players we need. Hence I don't believe that too much. I think its a by product of the situation but not what the plan is. I suspect we have identified players and are waiting for other factors rather than to save pennies when we spend more to offload players. KJ is experienced and I trust him and the board to there being a plan rather than penny pinching. I never really thought about the saving of a months money on a couple of players alongside the cost of letting Cisse go. Of course we don’t know the cost but the potential is obviously there. Good point.
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Post by duvb on Aug 6, 2021 9:51:20 GMT
Left as a free transfer so guess there has been a payout of his contract. Got to be 60k to 100k payment so not cheap. Probably a mutual agreement . He new he was not in KJ plans so asked for a free transfer . If he has found another club then no money is involved. I am sure Orient would not pay him that amount of money . They might as well keep him if that was the case First £30K to Cisse would be tax free and the Club would save 12.8% of PAYE/NI payments related to his future monthly salary.
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Post by dohnut on Aug 6, 2021 10:21:59 GMT
Probably a mutual agreement . He new he was not in KJ plans so asked for a free transfer . If he has found another club then no money is involved. I am sure Orient would not pay him that amount of money . They might as well keep him if that was the case First £30K to Cisse would be tax free and the Club would save 12.8% of PAYE/NI payments related to his future monthly salary. And monies paid to Cisse would not come out of the wages budget. That would be rare. The club would take the hit in other budget areas. So whilst from a club perspective the costs may be the same, the wages budget will have one less player to pay for. So KJ and ML have more flex room. All internal Cost Centre stuff. Makes no odds financially to the club who still pay whatever they need to. But the wages budget has more room.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2021 10:28:07 GMT
I don’t expect more than one coming in ( maybe be two at a push?)before the window closes and if there’s much more than that I would be very surprised , but ones my guess🙈
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Post by redintheface on Aug 6, 2021 12:50:24 GMT
I don’t expect more than one coming in ( maybe be two at a push?)before the window closes and if there’s much more than that I would be very surprised , but ones my guess🙈 As it appears from KJ’s comments that further player incomings will be largely determined by performances/ results I hope you’re right tbh as if only one additional player is brought in , it would suggest that the team are doing okay?👍
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