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Post by alfresco on Dec 4, 2023 10:44:09 GMT
Ok, so what's simple?
The reason the teams not doing very well at the moment.
People tend to over complicate things...... They do this all the time, it's natural, but the simple reason we're not doing very well is the players are not good enough.
It's not so simple to correct this mind, but the reason is simply that what I stated.
There are other factors too, such as lack of confidence, injuries etc, but the main reason is, this is basically a league 2 team, playing in league 1.
Three players with genuine league 1 quality brought in during Jan. Will probably be enough to keep us in this league, then, if the will is there in the summer, a few more genuine league 1, or above players will give us a team very well able to compete in this league.
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Post by redshank on Dec 4, 2023 11:00:03 GMT
Agree in part,but some showed great promise then relaxed a little when results went our way.The effort is needed again to get that desire again and progress with the team in this league.
We must remember however that Vigs was the hardest act to follow.
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Post by posho on Dec 4, 2023 11:56:37 GMT
There isn't the money for Jan. Most has already been spent as per Marshall Taylor. What older, experienced players are going to be available on loan
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Post by redintheface on Dec 4, 2023 12:23:14 GMT
Agree in part,but some showed great promise then relaxed a little when results went our way.The effort is needed again to get that desire again and progress with the team in this league. We must remember however that Vigs was the hardest act to follow. Disagree personally. Brynn has not been the main problem nor has the defence in general. Going forward is a different issue - lacking consistent quality , a genuine goal scorer , speed of thought and general tempo in our play far too often of late. On that basis I would say Smyth has proven to be the hardest act to follow. 👍 |
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Post by Thor on Dec 4, 2023 13:54:24 GMT
Red is right in all points raised above.
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Post by Thor on Dec 4, 2023 14:07:24 GMT
Just looked at the league table we have the 11th best goals against putting us just above half way. Goals for we are 17th thats the issue and it's measurable with our current league position of 16th.
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Post by redintheface on Dec 4, 2023 14:15:09 GMT
Worth noting as well that 11 of those goals against came in our first six league games of this season.
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Post by osoldguy on Dec 4, 2023 14:26:54 GMT
There isn't the money for Jan. Most has already been spent as per Marshall Taylor. What older, experienced players are going to be available on loan Very few I would guess that are fit, no long term injury history, not liable to be hiding an injury that after 2 games they break down requiring medical or surgical intervention. What will be on offer from clubs are players they want to off load for reasons mentioned or are ill disciplined that clubs have had enough and want to see the back off. RW in my mind will know who these players are and won't touch them with a barge pole. If O's are not careful they will eventually lose RW through his frustration to advance the playing side. He is imo probably the best Div1 manager. But if someone comes along flashing the proverbial cheque book I would not blame him for being tempted to leave. |
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Post by BasOfromthatLondon on Dec 4, 2023 22:03:20 GMT
Richie hasn't yet proved himself at this level so what bigger club is gonna come in for him?
I'd very much doubt if he's on anyone's radar this season, or even the next.
Steve Evans on the other hand...
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Post by dohnut on Dec 4, 2023 23:03:23 GMT
Ok, so what's simple? The reason the teams not doing very well at the moment. People tend to over complicate things...... They do this all the time, it's natural, but the simple reason we're not doing very well is the players are not good enough. It's not so simple to correct this mind, but the reason is simply that what I stated. There are other factors too, such as lack of confidence, injuries etc, but the main reason is, this is basically a league 2 team, playing in league 1. Three players with genuine league 1 quality brought in during Jan. Will probably be enough to keep us in this league, then, if the will is there in the summer, a few more genuine league 1, or above players will give us a team very well able to compete in this league. Sorry to say this but the comment that the players are not good enough is nonsense. How many league 1 games have you seen. I’ve seen all of ours. There are very few great teams in league 1 and we are as good as most. We are lacking in a couple of areas for sure. Same for all league 1 teams. But overall we are ok except for creating and taking chances. Our front players ain’t. Doing the business. The difference between us now and those in the playoffs is minimal. Our guys need the confidence to attack. Actually take a shot. Be aggressive. When we are we are pretty good but confidence is low. RW has a job to do. We ain’t that bad as a playing squad but just play badly |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2023 23:35:56 GMT
Richie hasn't yet proved himself at this level so what bigger club is gonna come in for him? We're in danger of lionising Richie imo. The squad can be strengthened, sure. We're really lacking some experience on the pitch. It occurred to me during the Bristol Rovers game that we have too many players who are very good at just one thing. But I also think Richie is way too idealistic with his tactics. Teams that get promoted playing possession football almost always get found out with the step up (the Norwich Paradox). Last season we hardly conceded any goals because we just kept the ball and teams weren't good enough to punish our mistakes. We'd normally be able to score one and that would be enough to win. This season we still keep the ball but teams are good enough to punish our mistakes. We can still normally score one but it's often not enough to win. We usually can't score two. We look best against mid-table teams that keep the ball better than us. We concede some possession for more chances to run at goal. Our not very quick defence is playing deeper, not peddling back towards goal every time we give the ball away (very often). Sure, the top teams will slaughter us. But look how bad we are at breaking down a low block. Too many bottom-half teams know they'll be comfortable just sitting back against us. We don't have anyone who can head in a cross. Nor anyone who can reliably play a defence-splitting pass to a runner. We also seem to have given up trying the 30-yard screamers that served us so well last season. Richie seemed to think we were brilliant against Bristol Rovers. That worried me a lot. What were we brilliant at? Keeping the ball? I've got a lot of time for him, but he needs to stop trying to play like a Pep team all the time and start being more pragmatic. Work on our defensive shape, learn to be more comfortable off the ball, and play our passing football when we're running at defences, not when standing still in front of them. It doesn't have to be one or the other, but we never look like we have a plan b. More like we just spend all week practicing passing triangles and nothing else. |
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Post by BasOfromthatLondon on Dec 5, 2023 0:03:33 GMT
Ok, so what's simple? The reason the teams not doing very well at the moment. People tend to over complicate things...... They do this all the time, it's natural, but the simple reason we're not doing very well is the players are not good enough. It's not so simple to correct this mind, but the reason is simply that what I stated. There are other factors too, such as lack of confidence, injuries etc, but the main reason is, this is basically a league 2 team, playing in league 1. Three players with genuine league 1 quality brought in during Jan. Will probably be enough to keep us in this league, then, if the will is there in the summer, a few more genuine league 1, or above players will give us a team very well able to compete in this league. Sorry to say this but the comment that the players are not good enough is nonsense. How many league 1 games have you seen. I’ve seen all of ours. There are very few great teams in league 1 and we are as good as most. We are lacking in a couple of areas for sure. Same for all league 1 teams. But overall we are ok except for creating and taking chances. Our front players ain’t. Doing the business. The difference between us now and those in the playoffs is minimal. Our guys need the confidence to attack. Actually take a shot. Be aggressive. When we are we are pretty good but confidence is low. RW has a job to do. We ain’t that bad as a playing squad but just play badly Charlton bought Alfie May, we didn't! Hopefully Dan Agyei can help in that department. You get what you paid for! |
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Post by Thor on Dec 5, 2023 6:00:42 GMT
Richie hasn't yet proved himself at this level so what bigger club is gonna come in for him? We're in danger of lionising Richie imo. The squad can be strengthened, sure. We're really lacking some experience on the pitch. It occurred to me during the Bristol Rovers game that we have too many players who are very good at just one thing. But I also think Richie is way too idealistic with his tactics. Teams that get promoted playing possession football almost always get found out with the step up (the Norwich Paradox). Last season we hardly conceded any goals because we just kept the ball and teams weren't good enough to punish our mistakes. We'd normally be able to score one and that would be enough to win. This season we still keep the ball but teams are good enough to punish our mistakes. We can still normally score one but it's often not enough to win. We usually can't score two. We look best against mid-table teams that keep the ball better than us. We concede some possession for more chances to run at goal. Our not very quick defence is playing deeper, not peddling back towards goal every time we give the ball away (very often). Sure, the top teams will slaughter us. But look how bad we are at breaking down a low block. Too many bottom-half teams know they'll be comfortable just sitting back against us. We don't have anyone who can head in a cross. Nor anyone who can reliably play a defence-splitting pass to a runner. We also seem to have given up trying the 30-yard screamers that served us so well last season. Richie seemed to think we were brilliant against Bristol Rovers. That worried me a lot. What were we brilliant at? Keeping the ball? I've got a lot of time for him, but he needs to stop trying to play like a Pep team all the time and start being more pragmatic. Work on our defensive shape, learn to be more comfortable off the ball, and play our passing football when we're running at defences, not when standing still in front of them. It doesn't have to be one or the other, but we never look like we have a plan b. More like we just spend all week practicing passing triangles and nothing else. Some really good pertinent points in here. I’d like to discuss about the philosophy of the team which is given to them by the manager. There is nothing wrong with the passing football we play and in time it will prove to be the decisive factor in getting us out this league. The problem at present as I see it is that the players or some of them are not better than there opposite opponent and therefore we struggle to play through them or around as you say the low block. As we are new to the league some are taking a little longer to adapt or be comfortable at this level and overtime as the squad is upgraded the passing football will become more incisive, will be quicker and teams won’t be able to score against us and due to us keeping the ball so well one nil will be well versed to win games for us once more. The hope from me is we finally get a number nine who can finish and we will then be finding two or three goals easier to come by than we do now. It’s a time thing we are in now and will change, we need to keep the faith as I’ve said before twists and turns, bumps and kinks will be coming our way, but RW has to stand firm in his beliefs and over time funds will allow him the upgrades he so desires to deliver his vision. It was said to me prior to the season you won’t do well without a number 9 and your tippy tappy football won’t work against the direct teams in this league. If you get a proper centre forward then it might work for you, but without that change you will struggle. Seems to me they were right, what concerns me is why ML didn’t address it or even realise it when normal football people knew it and our dof who played, coached, managed and works at a higher level than they do didn’t? Still I’ve enjoyed most of the season so far and hopefully will do so for the rest of the season. I’ve not seen the last game or the Bristol one so hope that these are abbreviations rather than a new norm. Onwards and upwards and let’s see where this ride goes, six years ago we were looking at an abyss, today the board are working their way towards providing RW the tools to enable us an opportunity to get in the championship. I’m behind them all, time is key here and today we are not yet ready, but we will be, let’s hope they all keep their nerve and continue to believe in the project. |
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Post by Fisch on Dec 5, 2023 7:45:34 GMT
Some good stuff going on here 🙂
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Post by redintheface on Dec 5, 2023 8:07:06 GMT
Richie hasn't yet proved himself at this level so what bigger club is gonna come in for him? We're in danger of lionising Richie imo. The squad can be strengthened, sure. We're really lacking some experience on the pitch. It occurred to me during the Bristol Rovers game that we have too many players who are very good at just one thing. But I also think Richie is way too idealistic with his tactics. Teams that get promoted playing possession football almost always get found out with the step up (the Norwich Paradox). Last season we hardly conceded any goals because we just kept the ball and teams weren't good enough to punish our mistakes. We'd normally be able to score one and that would be enough to win. This season we still keep the ball but teams are good enough to punish our mistakes. We can still normally score one but it's often not enough to win. We usually can't score two. We look best against mid-table teams that keep the ball better than us. We concede some possession for more chances to run at goal. Our not very quick defence is playing deeper, not peddling back towards goal every time we give the ball away (very often). Sure, the top teams will slaughter us. But look how bad we are at breaking down a low block. Too many bottom-half teams know they'll be comfortable just sitting back against us. We don't have anyone who can head in a cross. Nor anyone who can reliably play a defence-splitting pass to a runner. We also seem to have given up trying the 30-yard screamers that served us so well last season. Richie seemed to think we were brilliant against Bristol Rovers. That worried me a lot. What were we brilliant at? Keeping the ball? I've got a lot of time for him, but he needs to stop trying to play like a Pep team all the time and start being more pragmatic. Work on our defensive shape, learn to be more comfortable off the ball, and play our passing football when we're running at defences, not when standing still in front of them. It doesn't have to be one or the other, but we never look like we have a plan b. More like we just spend all week practicing passing triangles and nothing else. Very telling post imho from “dubious”. RW is a good manager with many strengths but like anyone else he also has faults. We saw a similar - but much quicker - demise with his predecessor Kenny Jackett whose equally “ young” team was playing excellently until December 2021 then fell off a cliff. Sadly for KJ he did not enjoy the same level of support amongst the fans ( or some might argue , behind the scenes) and he was speedily given the Spanish archer after his quest to bring in additional “ experience” failed. Wellens seems to be an individual whose single minded approach has a tendency to lapse into stubbornness imho. As said elsewhere by dohnut the O’s are not a bad squad in football terms but are just playing badly. The job in a nutshell for Richie is simple - get the team performing up to its potential - if he does that then I’m sure we’ll get through this. |
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Post by buffalobill on Dec 5, 2023 8:38:33 GMT
For me injuries have stopped us playing the style that Wellens wants for most of season. We played a high press when we won the league and this needs your wide players as well as your striker and no. 10 to be fully fit and working well as a unit.
We did that well against Wigan and looked good enough to hold our own in this league, but we’ve definitely been hampered by losing Agyei initially, Archibald periodically and now Graham long term.
Our squad was never deep enough or strong enough to cope well with such issues and that is all part of adapting to this level and gradually strengthening at each transfer window.
I firmly believe that Richie’s style will eventually bring us success at this level, but it will be a tough season and as supporters we must try not to lose the faith, as it will only make the players job harder if we start getting on their backs.
We may be frustrated, but we have to do our part to motivate the team.
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Post by harrycat on Dec 5, 2023 9:24:17 GMT
Some good points on here. Thor talks a lot of sense and seems to know and understand a great deal of the football issues.
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Post by dohnut on Dec 5, 2023 11:27:07 GMT
For me injuries have stopped us playing the style that Wellens wants for most of season. We played a high press when we won the league and this needs your wide players as well as your striker and no. 10 to be fully fit and working well as a unit. We did that well against Wigan and looked good enough to hold our own in this league, but we’ve definitely been hampered by losing Agyei initially, Archibald periodically and now Graham long term. Our squad was never deep enough or strong enough to cope well with such issues and that is all part of adapting to this level and gradually strengthening at each transfer window. I firmly believe that Richie’s style will eventually bring us success at this level, but it will be a tough season and as supporters we must try not to lose the faith, as it will only make the players job harder if we start getting on their backs. We may be frustrated, but we have to do our part to motivate the team. Archibald figures amongst those players with most appearances this season, all teams. Up there with El Miz and Soteriou for us. His absence is not a factor. Just the odd game. Nor is player age. Done the analysis and all this young group stuff is spin. For sure some lack experience but look around, we are not alone and nothing special. Interestingly the Stevenage model of getting in older more experienced players is working. Maybe we got our recruitment policy wrong and the signs are showing if that’s the case. What we are seeing in a resurgence in excuses. Officials, too many games, the international break etc. My fun with RE was guessing this weeks variation. RW is becoming RE mark 2 with that and a return to Embletonball. For a number 9 to be effective we need to get quality balls into the box, we don’t, not even from set plays. Our problem is right there. With the long range efforts drying up so has all of our attacking teeth. Having a set play coach and seeing how we perform is really starting to pizz me off. What a waste of time and money. Overall I think we have a decent squad. But we play poor football too often. Possession is fine, building from the back is great. But generally we dick about then pump up a long ball, meat and drink for defenders most of the time. When we do get forward we again sod about. Thin line between creating opportunities by drawing defenders out of position creating gaps and being clueless. More often the latter in my opinion. We have the core of a decent squad. Even with injuries. A blend of youth and experience. But it ain’t working. Not too sure signing Harry Kane would make any difference unless we learn how to deliver decent balls more often. |
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Post by dohnut on Dec 5, 2023 11:44:21 GMT
We're in danger of lionising Richie imo. The squad can be strengthened, sure. We're really lacking some experience on the pitch. It occurred to me during the Bristol Rovers game that we have too many players who are very good at just one thing. But I also think Richie is way too idealistic with his tactics. Teams that get promoted playing possession football almost always get found out with the step up (the Norwich Paradox). Last season we hardly conceded any goals because we just kept the ball and teams weren't good enough to punish our mistakes. We'd normally be able to score one and that would be enough to win. This season we still keep the ball but teams are good enough to punish our mistakes. We can still normally score one but it's often not enough to win. We usually can't score two. We look best against mid-table teams that keep the ball better than us. We concede some possession for more chances to run at goal. Our not very quick defence is playing deeper, not peddling back towards goal every time we give the ball away (very often). Sure, the top teams will slaughter us. But look how bad we are at breaking down a low block. Too many bottom-half teams know they'll be comfortable just sitting back against us. We don't have anyone who can head in a cross. Nor anyone who can reliably play a defence-splitting pass to a runner. We also seem to have given up trying the 30-yard screamers that served us so well last season. Richie seemed to think we were brilliant against Bristol Rovers. That worried me a lot. What were we brilliant at? Keeping the ball? I've got a lot of time for him, but he needs to stop trying to play like a Pep team all the time and start being more pragmatic. Work on our defensive shape, learn to be more comfortable off the ball, and play our passing football when we're running at defences, not when standing still in front of them. It doesn't have to be one or the other, but we never look like we have a plan b. More like we just spend all week practicing passing triangles and nothing else. Very telling post imho from “dubious”. RW is a good manager with many strengths but like anyone else he also has faults. We saw a similar - but much quicker - demise with his predecessor Kenny Jackett whose equally “ young” team was playing excellently until December 2021 then fell off a cliff. Sadly for KJ he did not enjoy the same level of support amongst the fans ( or some might argue , behind the scenes) and he was speedily given the Spanish archer after his quest to bring in additional “ experience” failed. Wellens seems to be an individual whose single minded approach has a tendency to lapse into stubbornness imho. As said elsewhere by dohnut the O’s are not a bad squad in football terms but are just playing badly. The job in a nutshell for Richie is simple - get the team performing up to its potential - if he does that then I’m sure we’ll get through this. The football we played under KJ was far better. Far more exciting. Plus two strikers in the top 10 in Drinan (who has done naff all in our current style) and Smith who was invited to bugger off. KJ had more than his fair share of problems, Smyth and Covid included but was ultimately screwed by a lack of players, poor recruitment and behind the scenes skulduggery. The sort of skulduggery that ended Fletchers short reign. I see an attitude change in RW including his open criticism of set plays, maybe someone being forced on to him that is making naff all contribution. RW can become a really top manager. I like him and want him to stay a long time. With the right support, growing knowledge in league 1 and without others poking their nose in he will do well for us. If not he will do well for someone else. |
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Post by alfresco on Dec 5, 2023 13:18:07 GMT
I'm not sure we do have a good squad for league 1. I must admit, the gap between good league 2 and good league 1 is massive, far bigger than i thought it would be.
Without going through every player in the squad, we havent got many that have played to a decent level in league 1 in the past.
Richie wants a few quality additions to the squad in January.........he's made that clear in his last few post match interviews, but the board reckon there's no money......the January budget was spent in the summer
My view is, without a few league 1 ready payers in, we might be league 2 team again by next May, and Richie is a proud principled man, and he may leave.
There are lots of other problems, such as not having a settled team....players playing out of position all the time, like Hunt and James, a lack of confidence, playng scared.
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