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Post by redintheface on Dec 5, 2023 13:32:19 GMT
The football we played under KJ was far better. Far more exciting. Plus two strikers in the top 10 in Drinan (who has done naff all in our current style) and Smith who was invited to bugger off. KJ had more than his fair share of problems, Smyth and Covid included but was ultimately screwed by a lack of players, poor recruitment and behind the scenes skulduggery. The sort of skulduggery that ended Fletchers short reign. I see an attitude change in RW including his open criticism of set plays, maybe someone being forced on to him that is making naff all contribution. RW can become a really top manager. I like him and want him to stay a long time. With the right support, growing knowledge in league 1 and without others poking their nose in he will do well for us. If not he will do well for someone else. Lot of truth in what you say dohnut imo. There are several parallels between the issues RW has faced this season and those Jackett had to put up with . Main close season signing unavailable for long spell ( Smyth) , late recruitment, loss of his most potent goal scoring threat in the close season ( Johnson) nagging and long term injuries to players diminishing his choices ( James, Thompson, Reilly ) requiring “ inexperienced” players like Mitchell & Ogie to go into the first team earlier than planned etc, etc. The main difference this time around seems to be that (a) we’ve avoided the catastrophic 8 losses in 10 games that Jackett endured before he was sacked and (b) even more importantly there seems to be a greater level of support for RW behind the scenes. |
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Post by buffalobill on Dec 5, 2023 13:40:33 GMT
For me injuries have stopped us playing the style that Wellens wants for most of season. We played a high press when we won the league and this needs your wide players as well as your striker and no. 10 to be fully fit and working well as a unit. We did that well against Wigan and looked good enough to hold our own in this league, but we’ve definitely been hampered by losing Agyei initially, Archibald periodically and now Graham long term. Our squad was never deep enough or strong enough to cope well with such issues and that is all part of adapting to this level and gradually strengthening at each transfer window. I firmly believe that Richie’s style will eventually bring us success at this level, but it will be a tough season and as supporters we must try not to lose the faith, as it will only make the players job harder if we start getting on their backs. We may be frustrated, but we have to do our part to motivate the team. Archibald figures amongst those players with most appearances this season, all teams. Up there with El Miz and Soteriou for us. His absence is not a factor. Just the odd game. Nor is player age. Done the analysis and all this young group stuff is spin. For sure some lack experience but look around, we are not alone and nothing special. Interestingly the Stevenage model of getting in older more experienced players is working. Maybe we got our recruitment policy wrong and the signs are showing if that’s the case. What we are seeing in a resurgence in excuses. Officials, too many games, the international break etc. My fun with RE was guessing this weeks variation. RW is becoming RE mark 2 with that and a return to Embletonball. For a number 9 to be effective we need to get quality balls into the box, we don’t, not even from set plays. Our problem is right there. With the long range efforts drying up so has all of our attacking teeth. Having a set play coach and seeing how we perform is really starting to pizz me off. What a waste of time and money. Overall I think we have a decent squad. But we play poor football too often. Possession is fine, building from the back is great. But generally we dick about then pump up a long ball, meat and drink for defenders most of the time. When we do get forward we again sod about. Thin line between creating opportunities by drawing defenders out of position creating gaps and being clueless. More often the latter in my opinion. We have the core of a decent squad. Even with injuries. A blend of youth and experience. But it ain’t working. Not too sure signing Harry Kane would make any difference unless we learn how to deliver decent balls more often. I’ll try to keep this short, so others don’t get bored by having to scroll through reams of thread. Archibald has put in a lot of minutes, but not as a winger, because Richie has had to vary his tactics due to injuries and has chosen to not play him in that position. As a club we try to recruit and develop younger players, we are not Stevenage, so experience at this level is limited. Agree we need quality balls, but our best crosser of a ball by a mile is now crocked. Richie mentioned set plays in his interview, his criticism was of ‘loopy’ crosses, I take that to mean a criticism of James, not the set play coach. |
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Post by Thor on Dec 5, 2023 14:25:48 GMT
No that's a criticism of McMahon as the player delivers what hes asked to deliver and doesn't just decide to do what he wants and feels.
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Post by dohnut on Dec 5, 2023 14:30:59 GMT
Archibald figures amongst those players with most appearances this season, all teams. Up there with El Miz and Soteriou for us. His absence is not a factor. Just the odd game. Nor is player age. Done the analysis and all this young group stuff is spin. For sure some lack experience but look around, we are not alone and nothing special. Interestingly the Stevenage model of getting in older more experienced players is working. Maybe we got our recruitment policy wrong and the signs are showing if that’s the case. What we are seeing in a resurgence in excuses. Officials, too many games, the international break etc. My fun with RE was guessing this weeks variation. RW is becoming RE mark 2 with that and a return to Embletonball. For a number 9 to be effective we need to get quality balls into the box, we don’t, not even from set plays. Our problem is right there. With the long range efforts drying up so has all of our attacking teeth. Having a set play coach and seeing how we perform is really starting to pizz me off. What a waste of time and money. Overall I think we have a decent squad. But we play poor football too often. Possession is fine, building from the back is great. But generally we dick about then pump up a long ball, meat and drink for defenders most of the time. When we do get forward we again sod about. Thin line between creating opportunities by drawing defenders out of position creating gaps and being clueless. More often the latter in my opinion. We have the core of a decent squad. Even with injuries. A blend of youth and experience. But it ain’t working. Not too sure signing Harry Kane would make any difference unless we learn how to deliver decent balls more often. I’ll try to keep this short, so others don’t get bored by having to scroll through reams of thread. Archibald has put in a lot of minutes, but not as a winger, because Richie has had to vary his tactics due to injuries and has chosen to not play him in that position. As a club we try to recruit and develop younger players, we are not Stevenage, so experience at this level is limited. Agree we need quality balls, but our best crosser of a ball by a mile is now crocked. Richie mentioned set plays in his interview, his criticism was of ‘loopy’ crosses, I take that to mean a criticism of James, not the set play coach. I don’t like Theo as a wing-back. Not making best use of his skill set. But he has been available to put in the minutes. And he has. Unlike Graham for example who is a massive loss. And I appreciate our approach is different to others, bring players in young, develop them etc. an approach that has merit. But can’t have it both ways. Bring in young to develop and moan about age/experience. Which is what is happening. I see us as more ambitious in many respects to Stevenage. We are building, Stevenage managing for today. |
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Post by posho on Dec 5, 2023 15:35:37 GMT
I think its a tough time for RW and the board. Barring postponements there are 6 games to play to and including 1st January. That would take us to 25 games played, more than half way through the season. They include Derby, Bolton and Charlton. The board has said that most of the budget has now been spent.RW has publicly told everyone what he wants in the transfer window. As he has described it, it will cost. I cant believe that T & T will want to let all their hard work and investment go to waste with relegation. The obvious answer is that the players start winning games again, but I cant see it happening. RW has challenged the club to 'give him the tools'.So do the owner's throw the challenge right back and say get on with it thus risk losing the manager and getting relegated or find the money from somewhere
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Post by Thor on Dec 5, 2023 16:02:47 GMT
Kent said on the Orient outlook podcast sometime ago that budgets can be fudged and money can be found. He also said this will get him in trouble.
The money is there if the will is there and as the owners are proper great owners in my view, money will be found.
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Post by posho on Dec 5, 2023 16:08:58 GMT
👍
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Post by dohnut on Dec 5, 2023 16:22:20 GMT
The football we played under KJ was far better. Far more exciting. Plus two strikers in the top 10 in Drinan (who has done naff all in our current style) and Smith who was invited to bugger off. KJ had more than his fair share of problems, Smyth and Covid included but was ultimately screwed by a lack of players, poor recruitment and behind the scenes skulduggery. The sort of skulduggery that ended Fletchers short reign. I see an attitude change in RW including his open criticism of set plays, maybe someone being forced on to him that is making naff all contribution. RW can become a really top manager. I like him and want him to stay a long time. With the right support, growing knowledge in league 1 and without others poking their nose in he will do well for us. If not he will do well for someone else. Lot of truth in what you say dohnut imo. There are several parallels between the issues RW has faced this season and those Jackett had to put up with . Main close season signing unavailable for long spell ( Smyth) , late recruitment, loss of his most potent goal scoring threat in the close season ( Johnson) nagging and long term injuries to players diminishing his choices ( James, Thompson, Reilly ) requiring “ inexperienced” players like Mitchell & Ogie to go into the first team earlier than planned etc, etc. The main difference this time around seems to be that (a) we’ve avoided the catastrophic 8 losses in 10 games that Jackett endured before he was sacked and (b) even more importantly there seems to be a greater level of support for RW behind the scenes. People forget, despite all the early problems we only lost a couple of games by December. Same in fact as RW. But too many draws. issues caught up with us, not having sufficient players to fill the bench at Tranmere. Then it really went pear shaped. RW inherited the core of a decent team too and turned it round. If I had to hazard a guess, backroom friction kicked in and KJ far too long in the tooth wanted out, no need to put up with rubbish, not building a career. When they appeared together ML looked intimidated by KJ. KJ didn’t get the support nor chance to do his job. All water under the bridge but lessons need to be learned. Then KJ had a very poor run. But that is exactly what is happening now with RW. I really hope history does not repeat itself. Early days RW was quick to praise ML. Don’t hear it now. Many of the comments made on incoming by RW don’t happen and when some did, so slow. Staff thrust onto him too What concerns me is that when things are going well everyone is happy clappy. Songs in the dressing room, jokes, togetherness and so on. The true test is when things go wrong and the bitching starts. Same everywhere. The mood in the camp is no longer what it was and it shows on the pitch. We need a morale boosting win and quick. And support come January. The latter is asking a lot. But if the Board wants a lot that’s the price. This next window could be a big deal. With two championships under his belt, RW will find another club very easily. We need him to stay. |
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Post by redintheface on Dec 5, 2023 16:51:26 GMT
Even if the Board wanted to splash out in the transfer window ( which I think we all know they don’t ) then the difficulty of finding the right player at the right price in has proven difficult in the past. Like all of us I can only hope this time we strike lucky.
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Post by dohnut on Dec 5, 2023 17:53:46 GMT
Even if the Board wanted to splash out in the transfer window ( which I think we all know they don’t ) then the difficulty of finding the right player at the right price in has proven difficult in the past. Like all of us I can only hope this time we strike lucky. Absolutely. The better players at our level will have deals in place. We can only hope that if the club are willing to spend, they haven’t let the club down in the past, the scouting set up have identified hungry and capable players wanting to step up. The Ethan Coleman type, but better. Maybe a better loan forward to replace Forde. Not Kelman! Players coming back too helps. Difficult time for the Board. Massive achievement getting us this far. Relegation would be a disaster. So do they stick to their budgets and hope we stop this poor run or dig deep? The Cup exit didn’t help. |
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Post by buffalobill on Dec 5, 2023 18:16:58 GMT
No that's a criticism of McMahon as the player delivers what hes asked to deliver and doesn't just decide to do what he wants and feels. Not so sure about that, as RW has also shown frustration when we don’t beat the first man and that wouldn’t be a coaching issue 🤷♂️ |
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Post by redintheface on Dec 5, 2023 18:22:30 GMT
Even if the Board wanted to splash out in the transfer window ( which I think we all know they don’t ) then the difficulty of finding the right player at the right price in has proven difficult in the past. Like all of us I can only hope this time we strike lucky. Absolutely. The better players at our level will have deals in place. We can only hope that if the club are willing to spend, they haven’t let the club down in the past, the scouting set up have identified hungry and capable players wanting to step up. The Ethan Coleman type, but better. Maybe a better loan forward to replace Forde. Not Kelman! Players coming back too helps. Difficult time for the Board. Massive achievement getting us this far. Relegation would be a disaster. So do they stick to their budgets and hope we stop this poor run or dig deep? The Cup exit didn’t help. Them’s the breaks to quote a phrase! The Board has some difficult decisions ahead. So far - despite a couple of glaring mistakes in the past- they have got the vast majority right. Fans won’t thank them though if they feel that by sticking to budgets the teams status is put at risk. |
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Post by Thor on Dec 5, 2023 21:48:24 GMT
Lot of truth in what you say dohnut imo. There are several parallels between the issues RW has faced this season and those Jackett had to put up with . Main close season signing unavailable for long spell ( Smyth) , late recruitment, loss of his most potent goal scoring threat in the close season ( Johnson) nagging and long term injuries to players diminishing his choices ( James, Thompson, Reilly ) requiring “ inexperienced” players like Mitchell & Ogie to go into the first team earlier than planned etc, etc. The main difference this time around seems to be that (a) we’ve avoided the catastrophic 8 losses in 10 games that Jackett endured before he was sacked and (b) even more importantly there seems to be a greater level of support for RW behind the scenes. People forget, despite all the early problems we only lost a couple of games by December. Same in fact as RW. But too many draws. issues caught up with us, not having sufficient players to fill the bench at Tranmere. Then it really went pear shaped. RW inherited the core of a decent team too and turned it round. If I had to hazard a guess, backroom friction kicked in and KJ far too long in the tooth wanted out, no need to put up with rubbish, not building a career. When they appeared together ML looked intimidated by KJ. KJ didn’t get the support nor chance to do his job. All water under the bridge but lessons need to be learned. Then KJ had a very poor run. But that is exactly what is happening now with RW. I really hope history does not repeat itself. Early days RW was quick to praise ML. Don’t hear it now. Many of the comments made on incoming by RW don’t happen and when some did, so slow. Staff thrust onto him too What concerns me is that when things are going well everyone is happy clappy. Songs in the dressing room, jokes, togetherness and so on. The true test is when things go wrong and the bitching starts. Same everywhere. The mood in the camp is no longer what it was and it shows on the pitch. We need a morale boosting win and quick. And support come January. The latter is asking a lot. But if the Board wants a lot that’s the price. This next window could be a big deal. With two championships under his belt, RW will find another club very easily. We need him to stay. I give up trying to educate you. I've told you many times why he was sacked, and it's funny Prately is still at the club playing a significant role. But you carry on with nonsense. |
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Post by eca on Dec 5, 2023 23:13:16 GMT
On the recent RW podcast that is on line by a Bradford City supporter who interviewed RW in his whole football career player and manager
RW did clearly mention ML ( he gets on with him) and basically said there was no reason to leave ( RW had been approached by teams including Bradford City and a team in a higher division but he did not want to leave he wants to demonstrate his loyalty.
He also previously mentioned he has a good working relationship with the board inc ML
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Post by eca on Dec 5, 2023 23:24:02 GMT
Regarding KJ
My understanding was he was sacked for reasons in addition to the poor run
Apparently it was said he was not as integrated with the players on the training / travelled separately from the team
The atmosphere at the training ground was not how it should be and the relationship with the fans was not how it should be
Personally how relevant all that was is now totally irrelevant and may not all of been true
I liked kJ I did not object to his interviews particularly when he said repeatedly in one “ they did a job on us “
RW gives in his interview a rapid summary of our technical faults and praises ( I appreciate that for us to understand but some times he goes into too much technical detail for a post match summary and too critical of a player
I respect KJ achievements at other clubs and I guess a lot of what was said about him was actually biased and / or overemphasised to justify his removal
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Post by Thor on Dec 5, 2023 23:52:50 GMT
Regarding KJ My understanding was he was sacked for reasons in addition to the poor run Apparently it was said he was not as integrated with the players on the training / travelled separately from the team The atmosphere at the training ground was not how it should be and the relationship with the fans was not how it should be Personally how relevant all that was is now totally irrelevant and may not all of been true I liked kJ I did not object to his interviews particularly when he said repeatedly in one “ they did a job on us “ RW gives in his interview a rapid summary of our technical faults and praises ( I appreciate that for us to understand but some times he goes into too much technical detail for a post match summary and too critical of a player I respect KJ achievements at other clubs and I guess a lot of what was said about him was actually biased and / or overemphasised to justify his removal mostly correct and his poor handling and treatment of certain players. |
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Post by dohnut on Dec 6, 2023 0:01:28 GMT
People forget, despite all the early problems we only lost a couple of games by December. Same in fact as RW. But too many draws. issues caught up with us, not having sufficient players to fill the bench at Tranmere. Then it really went pear shaped. RW inherited the core of a decent team too and turned it round. If I had to hazard a guess, backroom friction kicked in and KJ far too long in the tooth wanted out, no need to put up with rubbish, not building a career. When they appeared together ML looked intimidated by KJ. KJ didn’t get the support nor chance to do his job. All water under the bridge but lessons need to be learned. Then KJ had a very poor run. But that is exactly what is happening now with RW. I really hope history does not repeat itself. Early days RW was quick to praise ML. Don’t hear it now. Many of the comments made on incoming by RW don’t happen and when some did, so slow. Staff thrust onto him too What concerns me is that when things are going well everyone is happy clappy. Songs in the dressing room, jokes, togetherness and so on. The true test is when things go wrong and the bitching starts. Same everywhere. The mood in the camp is no longer what it was and it shows on the pitch. We need a morale boosting win and quick. And support come January. The latter is asking a lot. But if the Board wants a lot that’s the price. This next window could be a big deal. With two championships under his belt, RW will find another club very easily. We need him to I give up trying to educate you. I've told you many times why he was sacked, and it's funny Prately is still at the club playing a significant role. But you carry on with nonsense. Trying to educate me! Methinks you rate yourself far too highly. ThOracle. 😂 Let me educate you. I’ve been round the block. When you hear a story, what you get is one perspective of the truth, that person’s perspective. To really understand the truth you need to hear both sides to be able to make any form of genuine judgement. So unless you’ve been chatting to KJ you will never know the full story, you are making a judgement on half the story. And one that may be biased. Of course if you have talked to KJ I’d be delighted on knowing his take. Thats the reality. Based on years of experience. |
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Post by eca on Dec 6, 2023 0:39:26 GMT
Regarding KJ My understanding was he was sacked for reasons in addition to the poor run Apparently it was said he was not as integrated with the players on the training / travelled separately from the team The atmosphere at the training ground was not how it should be and the relationship with the fans was not how it should be Personally how relevant all that was is now totally irrelevant and may not all of been true I liked kJ I did not object to his interviews particularly when he said repeatedly in one “ they did a job on us “ RW gives in his interview a rapid summary of our technical faults and praises ( I appreciate that for us to understand but some times he goes into too much technical detail for a post match summary and too critical of a player I respect KJ achievements at other clubs and I guess a lot of what was said about him was actually biased and / or overemphasised to justify his removal mostly correct and his poor handling and treatment of certain players. Yes it was posted by others that he removed Prats from the team or squad and one player in an interview along time after mentioned that as a specific example to why or what had occurred and now it’s better under RW Pratley in one interview said he was asked to play a specific role which meant he was caught between two minds at times to go back or forward and it then gave spectators the impression his legs had gone which obviously is not true. Re;training had improved under RW too KJ is still in football and doing well it appears Gillingham are in the next round - he as the DOF must have some effect on the club in a positive way. But orient are doing very well with our current set up of staff |
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Post by buffalobill on Dec 6, 2023 7:23:37 GMT
I give up trying to educate you. I've told you many times why he was sacked, and it's funny Prately is still at the club playing a significant role. But you carry on with nonsense. Trying to educate me! Methinks you rate yourself far too highly. ThOracle. 😂 Let me educate you. I’ve been round the block. When you hear a story, what you get is one perspective of the truth, that person’s perspective. To really understand the truth you need to hear both sides to be able to make any form of genuine judgement. So unless you’ve been chatting to KJ you will never know the full story, you are making a judgement on half the story. And one that may be biased. Of course if you have talked to KJ I’d be delighted on knowing his take. Thats the reality. Based on years of experience. Well the board heard both sides of the story and sacked KJ. |
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Post by redintheface on Dec 6, 2023 8:07:19 GMT
Trying to educate me! Methinks you rate yourself far too highly. ThOracle. 😂 Let me educate you. I’ve been round the block. When you hear a story, what you get is one perspective of the truth, that person’s perspective. To really understand the truth you need to hear both sides to be able to make any form of genuine judgement. So unless you’ve been chatting to KJ you will never know the full story, you are making a judgement on half the story. And one that may be biased. Of course if you have talked to KJ I’d be delighted on knowing his take. Thats the reality. Based on years of experience. Well the board heard both sides of the story and sacked KJ. If the Board had any sense they would have disregarded any “ stories” from whatever side and acted solely upon results - which is what I suspect actually happened. |
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