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Post by SW O on Dec 5, 2023 20:01:57 GMT
I think there's too much here about not having League 1 players, but (as I've posted before) everyone seems to forget that although League 1 sounds posh it's only Division 3, not so daunting, and where we've spent most of our time over the years. I haven't seen anything particularly spectacular from the teams we've played against. And if we hadn't got off to such a bad start we'd be in a much better position - I haven't forgotten the Cambridge match back in August when we played some of the best football I've ever seen us play (and they were top at the time). I'm puzzled by some of the recent lacklustre performances, but not too worried.
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Post by mayland0s on Dec 5, 2023 20:15:37 GMT
You should also remember div 3 is now the retirement home for ex div 2 players ( in your parlance)
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Post by eca on Dec 5, 2023 21:51:45 GMT
If we had been awarded or completed the game with Lincoln secured the three points at the time those three points would have push orient just below the playoffs and quite near on points - it would also of maintained the positive feelings
I watched premiership ( for the first time ever recently) on line I was astonished how the style of play was different to the 1970 and 1980.
What was also very noticeable is how orient currently are trying to replicate with this passing and ball retention
The big difference is the pure individual ability of the premier players allows that with more success and when it did break down the attacking ability of the other side resulted in a clinical goal.
I don’t mind orient trying this but because the clinical goal moving forward or on a counter attack does not occur the overall feeling is not as positive.
Personally I prefer the style of the previous decades where if a team lost the ball one had one like Grealish (RIP) as an example fighting and getting the ball back and there was less passing across the pitch
RW tactics obviously work as we won and drawn games but generally I would like to see a more direct approach sometimes in the game and if we lose the ball the hard press would be in the opposition attacking zone well away from our goal or half
Given the other teams individual ability is atm not evident that it’s much better than our players there would be a reasonable justification for anticipating that they would make a mistake in their own half
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Post by Thor on Dec 5, 2023 22:05:01 GMT
Glad you can see what we are trying to implement as a style of play. It's not too bad to copy the best is it?
Now with the direct approach you favour if you've got a high press in place as soon as you lose the ball you're press is bypassed and you've 2/3/4 players out the game. By playing a retentive style your always alive to the game and you're press is more effective and reactive.
Long ball football is limited, and will only take you so far as asking your players to chase down say Man City for 90 plus mins cos you keep giving over possession is not doable over a period of time. Your players will be dead on their feet fairly quickly.
Swings and roundabouts.
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League 1
Dec 5, 2023 22:21:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by eca on Dec 5, 2023 22:21:56 GMT
I am not asking for say
Wimbledon direct of the decades ago or say Jack Charlton style he used.
What I would like is a style that mixes into our current style or integrated in phases so the current predicated across is not so evident and our players which I like and are trying their best would possibly achieve more goals.
I acknowledge when Theo or others get the ball on the wing we do manage to create chances on crosses and then I don’t mind if there is a lot of ball retention previously but the ratio of ball retention not moving forward is excessive compared with the number of chances we create.
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Post by dohnut on Dec 5, 2023 23:46:59 GMT
I remember Davies, he played the same style as RE and now RW. It nearly put us is the NL South. It’s a great style but, you need a team of players capable of that style of football or it just doesn’t work. Fine in the PL with teams like Man City but as much as it pains me to say, we ain’t them.
Success isn’t about this system or that system it’s about getting a squad buying into to and being able to play it. And why RW dumped Smith, Ogie and the guy whose name I forgot at left back. Decent enough players but square pegs. Drinan/Smith thrived under KJ but just didn’t work under RW. They didn’t all of a sudden become poor players, the system changed. Not them.
When I look at our players I don’t see weak links, players worse than most in league 1. Our squad is league 1 capable and as they have demonstrated can compete with league 1 teams. We beat teams who were top in Cambridge and Exeter and got creditable draws against other fancied teams. We need to dump this ‘we ain’t got league 1 ready players crap or they are too young crap or they lack experience crap. That may well account for the odd screw up. But that just ain’t the problem, nor are the injuries.
We play like a team devoid of confidence, playing in fear, reluctant to have a go. Rabbits staring into the headlights waiting for the crash. Our problems are more to do with the mind than the skill. Maybe they are being asked to play in a way that just don’t work for them in league 1 and it’s starting to take its toll on them mentally.
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Post by alfresco on Dec 6, 2023 9:57:27 GMT
I remember Davies, he played the same style as RE and now RW. It nearly put us is the NL South. It’s a great style but, you need a team of players capable of that style of football or it just doesn’t work. Fine in the PL with teams like Man City but as much as it pains me to say, we ain’t them. Success isn’t about this system or that system it’s about getting a squad buying into to and being able to play it. And why RW dumped Smith, Ogie and the guy whose name I forgot at left back. Decent enough players but square pegs. Drinan/Smith thrived under KJ but just didn’t work under RW. They didn’t all of a sudden become poor players, the system changed. Not them. When I look at our players I don’t see weak links, players worse than most in league 1. Our squad is league 1 capable and as they have demonstrated can compete with league 1 teams. We beat teams who were top in Cambridge and Exeter and got creditable draws against other fancied teams. We need to dump this ‘we ain’t got league 1 ready players crap or they are too young crap or they lack experience crap. That may well account for the odd screw up. But that just ain’t the problem, nor are the injuries. We play like a team devoid of confidence, playing in fear, reluctant to have a go. Rabbits staring into the headlights waiting for the crash. Our problems are more to do with the mind than the skill. Maybe they are being asked to play in a way that just don’t work for them in league 1 and it’s starting to take its toll on them mentally.
Can RW actually inspire them any more?
For my part, I wish players would play in a settled position every week, instead of all this changing positions one week, then again the next week, then back to the first position etc etc
A good example is Theo. One week he is playing as a left winger, next match he's playing left wing back, then he plays right wing etc etc. Theos best position is attacking left wing, and he should play there week after week.
Same applies to Ruel. IMO his best position is up front, in the centre of attack, but so many weeks he plays a sort of withdrawn number 10 role, which doesn't suit him, or he's stuck out wide left etc
Same with Tom James Rob Hunt, even El Miz, is playing much different, to how he did last season.
It seems as if Richie is panicking a little at the moment |
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Post by dennisrofe on Dec 6, 2023 10:10:18 GMT
If we had been awarded or completed the game with Lincoln secured the three points at the time those three points would have push orient just below the playoffs and quite near on points - it would also of maintained the positive feelings I watched premiership ( for the first time ever recently) on line I was astonished how the style of play was different to the 1970 and 1980. What was also very noticeable is how orient currently are trying to replicate with this passing and ball retention The big difference is the pure individual ability of the premier players allows that with more success and when it did break down the attacking ability of the other side resulted in a clinical goal. I don’t mind orient trying this but because the clinical goal moving forward or on a counter attack does not occur the overall feeling is not as positive. Personally I prefer the style of the previous decades where if a team lost the ball one had one like Grealish as an example fighting and getting the ball back and there was less passing across the pitch RW tactics obviously work as we won and drawn games but generally I would like to see a more direct approach sometimes in the game and if we lose the ball the hard press would be in the opposition attacking zone well away from our goal or half Given the other teams individual ability is atm not evident that it’s much better than our players there would be a reasonable justification for anticipating that they would make a mistake in their own half Good comment indeed ! |
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Post by dennisrofe on Dec 6, 2023 10:20:55 GMT
I remember Davies, he played the same style as RE and now RW. It nearly put us is the NL South. It’s a great style but, you need a team of players capable of that style of football or it just doesn’t work. Fine in the PL with teams like Man City but as much as it pains me to say, we ain’t them. Success isn’t about this system or that system it’s about getting a squad buying into to and being able to play it. And why RW dumped Smith, Ogie and the guy whose name I forgot at left back. Decent enough players but square pegs. Drinan/Smith thrived under KJ but just didn’t work under RW. They didn’t all of a sudden become poor players, the system changed. Not them. When I look at our players I don’t see weak links, players worse than most in league 1. Our squad is league 1 capable and as they have demonstrated can compete with league 1 teams. We beat teams who were top in Cambridge and Exeter and got creditable draws against other fancied teams. We need to dump this ‘we ain’t got league 1 ready players crap or they are too young crap or they lack experience crap. That may well account for the odd screw up. But that just ain’t the problem, nor are the injuries. We play like a team devoid of confidence, playing in fear, reluctant to have a go. Rabbits staring into the headlights waiting for the crash. Our problems are more to do with the mind than the skill. Maybe they are being asked to play in a way that just don’t work for them in league 1 and it’s starting to take its toll on them mentally.
Can RW actually inspire them any more?
For my part, I wish players would play in a settled position every week, instead of all this changing positions one week, then again the next week, then back to the first position etc etc
A good example is Theo. One week he is playing as a left winger, next match he's playing left wing back, then he plays right wing etc etc. Theos best position is attacking left wing, and he should play there week after week.
Same applies to Ruel. IMO his best position is up front, in the centre of attack, but so many weeks he plays a sort of withdrawn number 10 role, which doesn't suit him, or he's stuck out wide left etc
Same with Tom James Rob Hunt, even El Miz, is playing much different, to how he did last season.
It seems as if Richie is panicking a little at the momentWell said ''alfresco'' I especially agree with what you wrote about Theo and Ruel. For myself, I am of the opinion that this is going to be a season of struggling to avoid relegation, really hope I am wrong !
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Post by redintheface on Dec 6, 2023 11:07:23 GMT
Over simplified perhaps but I recall Justin Edinburgh saying that he would always try to play a system that suited the players he had available to him. I sometimes feel RW starts at the other end of the spectrum and is more interested in developing a system that he asks players to adapt to.
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League 1
Dec 6, 2023 11:09:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by watfordo on Dec 6, 2023 11:09:44 GMT
Over simplified perhaps but I recall Justin Edinburgh saying that he would always try to play a system that suited the players he had available to him. I sometimes feel RW starts at the other end of the spectrum and is more interested in developing a system that he asks players to adapt to. I would say this is true but its also about the players the DOF finds to suit the style the club want. |
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Post by redintheface on Dec 6, 2023 11:19:20 GMT
Over simplified perhaps but I recall Justin Edinburgh saying that he would always try to play a system that suited the players he had available to him. I sometimes feel RW starts at the other end of the spectrum and is more interested in developing a system that he asks players to adapt to. I would say this is true but its also about the players the DOF finds to suit the style the club want. I would say that is true too. However if “ style” becomes the overriding factor to the exclusion of other qualities ( e.g character durability , experience) then there is a risk of becoming one dimensional and predictable. That’s my view anyway!👍 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2023 11:28:12 GMT
I would say this is true but its also about the players the DOF finds to suit the style the club want. I would say that is true too. However if “ style” becomes the overriding factor to the exclusion of other qualities ( e.g character durability , experience) then there is a risk of becoming . That’s my view anyway!👍 Our play is already one dimensional and predictable. Opposition know what we do. They know that we are no threat up front and so set up to make us even a less threat up front. |
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Post by dennisrofe on Dec 6, 2023 11:48:05 GMT
I would say this is true but its also about the players the DOF finds to suit the style the club want. I would say that is true too. However if “ style” becomes the overriding factor to the exclusion of other qualities ( e.g character durability , experience) then there is a risk of becoming one dimensional and predictable. That’s my view anyway!👍 Leyton Orient seem ''one dimensional and predictable''.... Very true!!
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Post by dennisrofe on Dec 6, 2023 11:54:41 GMT
Over simplified perhaps but I recall Justin Edinburgh saying that he would always try to play a system that suited the players he had available to him. I sometimes feel RW starts at the other end of the spectrum and is more interested in developing a system that he asks players to adapt to. '' I recall Justin Edinburgh saying that he would always try to play a system that suited the players he had available to him'' In other words, ''you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear'' Makes sense to me !! Justin inherited a team of players and came up with a straight forward and successful system that got the best out of the players that he had available to select.
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Post by redshank on Dec 6, 2023 12:07:20 GMT
I always bear in mind we are in division 3.Wonder how many games we have lost playing out from the back very poorly.Doing it so slow leaves the player in possession the option to lose the ball or kick inanely when put under pressure.Slick passing can overcome this,but we do play a slow game.When we up the ante we look great.
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Post by Thor on Dec 6, 2023 14:58:17 GMT
I always bear in mind we are in division 3.Wonder how many games we have lost playing out from the back very poorly.Doing it so slow leaves the player in possession the option to lose the ball or kick inanely when put under pressure.Slick passing can overcome this,but we do play a slow game.When we up the ante we look great. that's a great point, many a time I'd like to see us move the ball quicker and when we do that the other team enverably can't cope with us. Trouble is we don't do it anywhere near enough and often enough. |
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Post by dohnut on Dec 6, 2023 15:58:57 GMT
Over simplified perhaps but I recall Justin Edinburgh saying that he would always try to play a system that suited the players he had available to him. I sometimes feel RW starts at the other end of the spectrum and is more interested in developing a system that he asks players to adapt to. That redintheface is spot on. Justin created a championship winning team out of basically the same group Davies had when failing miserably. Good teams are those where the manager recognises the strengths and weaknesses of his squad, maximising the strengths and not falling foul of the weaknesses. Still miss JE. I sense RW has a preferred style and tries to mould players accordingly. Did us proud in league 2. But it hasn’t travelled well. But I do agree with other points, when we move quicker and with real purpose, we look good. It’s all there. |
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Post by redshank on Dec 6, 2023 16:01:45 GMT
The rest of League 2 were not promoted with us,so the quality of the players in League 1 are in general superior.
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Post by kbola on Dec 6, 2023 16:45:07 GMT
I would say that is true too. However if “ style” becomes the overriding factor to the exclusion of other qualities ( e.g character durability , experience) then there is a risk of becoming . That’s my view anyway!👍 Our play is already one dimensional and predictable. Opposition know what we do. They know that we are no threat up front and so set up to make us even a less threat up front. Nurse he's wet the bed again 😄 |
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