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Post by orientsc on Jan 12, 2024 13:35:41 GMT
Just a couple of thoughts . Does anyone else wonder why ,with all our USA connections we never get any promising youths from America . Or indeed any players from the US that would want to gain experience from playing here . The other thought is we just don’t seem to get the kids through from the youths like we used to . Orient used to be famous for it . There are already good answers to this question, but I thought I would offer an additional point about English born players who play here in America. Football in America is driven by local academies that steer players into college teams. The level of play in the college game has increased, and there are English born players who have noticed and have made their way into the top ranks of college football. Three UK born players were drafted in the MLS Super Draft just this year. Just for example, this list includes Tyger Smalls, a Tottenham Academy member. He was drafted by Dean Smith’s Charlotte FC. I’m just a humble fan, but I have kids in our local academy and we take in a lot of college games as well. There are players here that could play in League One with the right coaching. There are hidden English gems in the college ranks that English club scouts should consider. That gets around the international cap issue because these are English players not Americans. |
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Post by osoldguy on Jan 12, 2024 15:07:58 GMT
Just a couple of thoughts . Does anyone else wonder why ,with all our USA connections we never get any promising youths from America . Or indeed any players from the US that would want to gain experience from playing here . The other thought is we just don’t seem to get the kids through from the youths like we used to . Orient used to be famous for it . There are already good answers to this question, but I thought I would offer an additional point about English born players who play here in America. Football in America is driven by local academies that steer players into college teams. The level of play in the college game has increased, and there are English born players who have noticed and have made their way into the top ranks of college football. Three UK born players were drafted in the MLS Super Draft just this year. Just for example, this list includes Tyger Smalls, a Tottenham Academy member. He was drafted by Dean Smith’s Charlotte FC. I’m just a humble fan, but I have kids in our local academy and we take in a lot of college games as well. There are players here that could play in League One with the right coaching. There are hidden English gems in the college ranks that English club scouts should consider. That gets around the international cap issue because these are English players not Americans. I like what you say and it's all relevant in my book. But I might be well off the beam but clubs like the O's under their own admission have 4 management and 5-6 part time scouts.Ithink they rely today on Agents offering their Clients ( players) to clubs. This saves them from large scale scouting as was previously the case.I take the British players on college courses would be reluctant to leave their course until they graduated.But those that have graduated would provide a good opportunity to further their careers if considered able to play at EFL level. |
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Post by mayland0s on Jan 12, 2024 15:26:21 GMT
Just a couple of thoughts . Does anyone else wonder why ,with all our USA connections we never get any promising youths from America . Or indeed any players from the US that would want to gain experience from playing here . The other thought is we just don’t seem to get the kids through from the youths like we used to . Orient used to be famous for it . There are already good answers to this question, but I thought I would offer an additional point about English born players who play here in America. Football in America is driven by local academies that steer players into college teams. The level of play in the college game has increased, and there are English born players who have noticed and have made their way into the top ranks of college football. Three UK born players were drafted in the MLS Super Draft just this year. Just for example, this list includes Tyger Smalls, a Tottenham Academy member. He was drafted by Dean Smith’s Charlotte FC. I’m just a humble fan, but I have kids in our local academy and we take in a lot of college games as well. There are players here that could play in League One with the right coaching. There are hidden English gems in the college ranks that English club scouts should consider. That gets around the international cap issue because these are English players not Americans. Thanks orientsc , really good informative reply . But that begs the question of why we haven’t picked up anyone from over there . |
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Signings
Jan 12, 2024 15:30:52 GMT
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Post by buffalobill on Jan 12, 2024 15:30:52 GMT
In Richie’s interview pre Pompey he says we are trying to sign Brandon Cooper on a permanent deal.
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Post by Fisch on Jan 12, 2024 15:40:46 GMT
In Richie’s interview pre Pompey he says we are trying to sign Brandon Cooper on a permanent deal. That surprised me too, maybe things changed between the interview and its publishing time |
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Signings
Jan 12, 2024 15:47:28 GMT
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Post by buffalobill on Jan 12, 2024 15:47:28 GMT
In Richie’s interview pre Pompey he says we are trying to sign Brandon Cooper on a permanent deal. That surprised me too, maybe things changed between the interview and its publishing time By trying to get him on a permanent deal, opens up the option for a further loan player as Richie mentioned, but get it that the press release made it sound like goodbye, end of. |
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Signings
Jan 12, 2024 16:21:02 GMT
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Post by Fisch on Jan 12, 2024 16:21:02 GMT
That surprised me too, maybe things changed between the interview and its publishing time By trying to get him on a permanent deal, opens up the option for a further loan player as Richie mentioned, but get it that the press release made it sound like goodbye, end of. Assuming Cooper is wanted as a signing and it may open the door for another loanee but l assume it will have to be financed by an outgoing deal. Ling certainly has a mountain to climb to make all this come together. |
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Post by redintheface on Jan 12, 2024 16:25:53 GMT
In Richie’s interview pre Pompey he says we are trying to sign Brandon Cooper on a permanent deal. That surprised me too, maybe things changed between the interview and its publishing time Tbh doesn’t surprise me at all. I think RW was pretty confident in Cooper and recognised that depth at the CB position is vital. I certainly never thought for a minute that the much discussed “ disciplinary” issues were a factor in his return to Swansea. |
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Signings
Jan 12, 2024 16:56:42 GMT
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Post by theydonorient on Jan 12, 2024 16:56:42 GMT
Cooper is not for me !!
I know some people like him.
Apart from his dreadful disciplinary record including two sendings off, I am more worried about his lack of speed, pool tactical positioning, awful tackling and dreadful defending errors. I see nothing in this player and every-time he was subbed we as a team were so much better after he was off the pitch.
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Post by orientsc on Jan 12, 2024 19:58:06 GMT
There are already good answers to this question, but I thought I would offer an additional point about English born players who play here in America. Football in America is driven by local academies that steer players into college teams. The level of play in the college game has increased, and there are English born players who have noticed and have made their way into the top ranks of college football. Three UK born players were drafted in the MLS Super Draft just this year. Just for example, this list includes Tyger Smalls, a Tottenham Academy member. He was drafted by Dean Smith’s Charlotte FC. I’m just a humble fan, but I have kids in our local academy and we take in a lot of college games as well. There are players here that could play in League One with the right coaching. There are hidden English gems in the college ranks that English club scouts should consider. That gets around the international cap issue because these are English players not Americans. Thanks orientsc , really good informative reply . But that begs the question of why we haven’t picked up anyone from over there . I don’t know why it has not been done. You never know who reads the post on this forum, but these college games are online for nearly free. The coaches of these teams would love nothing more than to tell recruits that they have players playing professionally in England. A English player who stumbles in England but comes over and grows and succeeds at the higher level here seems like an obvious good deal. The phone numbers are public. There are major European clubs that send scouts and we get direct club wide invitations to meet with them and to let the kids have tryouts. There are probably factors I am not thinking of, but free video and a phone call with a receptive audience for an undervalued player sounds like a good deal. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 22:02:21 GMT
Cooper is not for me !! I know some people like him. Apart from his dreadful disciplinary record including two sendings off, I am more worried about his lack of speed, pool tactical positioning, awful tackling and dreadful defending errors. I see nothing in this player and every-time he was subbed we as a team were so much better after he was off the pitch. Pretty sure he was only subbed off once, and that was cos he was having a stinker. Of course the team got better 😅 I would trust the club on this one. His form fell off a cliff so dramatically that I'd wondered if there might be some private stuff going on that we're not privy to. If so, the club might be sympathetic to that. I also think his disciplinary record looks worse on paper than it actually is. Not gonna defend the elbow, but the red against Gillingham looked unfortunate to me -- opponent comes sliding across and Coops stumbles over him. I remember at the time thinking that he'd been fouled! But if he stepped on the guy, fair enough. Oh, and 3 yellows in 14 games for a CB isn't bad either. Even our manager has more than that! I'm fairly indifferent to signing him tbh, but I think he's shown himself to be a decent enough defender at this level. If the club think private matters have affected his form and discipline more than his mental and physical application then I'm happy to roll with it. If he's cheap, of course 🫣 |
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Post by Fisch on Jan 12, 2024 22:51:08 GMT
A question for orientsc ... If these UK born players are doing well in the college system and MLS, are they paid well? Could Orient afford them? |
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Post by moonwalk19 on Jan 13, 2024 9:17:59 GMT
Cooper is not for me !! I know some people like him. Apart from his dreadful disciplinary record including two sendings off, I am more worried about his lack of speed, pool tactical positioning, awful tackling and dreadful defending errors. I see nothing in this player and every-time he was subbed we as a team were so much better after he was off the pitch. Agree not for me either. Could be that if he does sign the club might want to get some money by selling Happe. He is out of contract in July |
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Signings
Jan 13, 2024 10:50:17 GMT
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Post by Thor on Jan 13, 2024 10:50:17 GMT
Cooper is not for me !! I know some people like him. Apart from his dreadful disciplinary record including two sendings off, I am more worried about his lack of speed, pool tactical positioning, awful tackling and dreadful defending errors. I see nothing in this player and every-time he was subbed we as a team were so much better after he was off the pitch. Agree not for me either. Could be that if he does sign the club might want to get some money by selling Happe. He is out of contract in July no he is not. The club has a one year extention in his contract in its favour. |
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Signings
Jan 13, 2024 11:04:59 GMT
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Post by theydonorient on Jan 13, 2024 11:04:59 GMT
Cooper is not for me !! I know some people like him. Apart from his dreadful disciplinary record including two sendings off, I am more worried about his lack of speed, pool tactical positioning, awful tackling and dreadful defending errors. I see nothing in this player and every-time he was subbed we as a team were so much better after he was off the pitch. Pretty sure he was only subbed off once, and that was cos he was having a stinker. Of course the team got better 😅 I would trust the club on this one. His form fell off a cliff so dramatically that I'd wondered if there might be some private stuff going on that we're not privy to. If so, the club might be sympathetic to that. I also think his disciplinary record looks worse on paper than it actually is. Not gonna defend the elbow, but the red against Gillingham looked unfortunate to me -- opponent comes sliding across and Coops stumbles over him. I remember at the time thinking that he'd been fouled! But if he stepped on the guy, fair enough. Oh, and 3 yellows in 14 games for a CB isn't bad either. Even our manager has more than that! I'm fairly indifferent to signing him tbh, but I think he's shown himself to be a decent enough defender at this level. If the club think private matters have affected his form and discipline more than his mental and physical application then I'm happy to roll with it. If he's cheap, of course 🫣 He was subbed twice recently , Wigan and Carlisle by Hunt and Sweeney, both times he was having a dreadful game. I looked back on his games from start of November, in every game he either got a red, a yellow, was subbed or wan’t playing as he was suspended except I believe in just one game. Why would we want to carry on like this ? |
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Post by redshank on Jan 13, 2024 12:44:36 GMT
Probably the attitude in training,managers think about players different than the fans do.They must have an ear to the fans,but he is the boss and he ain't done bad.
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Post by orientsc on Jan 13, 2024 13:25:36 GMT
A question for orientsc ... If these UK born players are doing well in the college system and MLS, are they paid well? Could Orient afford them? This answer could be a bit tedious, but it may help with an answer for the thread. The short answer is Orient could compete for good college players, but not MLS. The MLS is cost prohibitive. The league minimum salary is $84,000. I would bet that most of the English players make much more than that amount. It would be more trouble than it’s worth to scout these players. The real place for value is in the colleges. A brief rundown of how college works may help here. College players are not directly paid by the schools. The college players at the top level get assistance with college expenses, but every player does not get everything paid. The scholarships are split amongst the players. The full scholarships could be valued at several hundred thousand dollars on average. One important note, though, average students who excel in football can earn admission to the most elite schools in the US through the football program. Schools that field strong football teams include Stanford, Yale and Notre Dame. It’s a foot in the door for kids who would not make it any other way. The orientsc family has this kind of scenario in the back of our minds should everything go well for us. A college player who signs a professional contract loses his or her eligibility to play further in college. That’s the gamble and where the players motivation to play and market forces would matter. Enough money and opportunity has to be offered to get the player to leave college early if the goal is to sign 18 or 19 year olds. The alternative is to scout players who have finished their eligibility. There are plenty of capable players who are 21 who go on to the USL (smaller clubs in the US). The USL pays tiny salaries. There is a gap between the MLS and USL. If a player is not quite at the level of MLS, he falls dramatically in salary potential if he goes to the USL. That is where I think the opportunity is. Many of the English players fail at their academies in England because of injury, or they peak late. College football is growing and imprint in competition level in the US, and these players see this as an option to continue to play and work their way back to a chance for a professional contract. The Orient can easily compete financially for these players who are not quite at the MLS level, but are still capable. I realize that football works very differently here than in the UK. I realize that the general idea there is spot the players when they are young children and develop them. The thinking may be that the college players are too old to get started in England, and that may be true for many. However, few English teams are scouting these players, and I think Orient would have huge advantages as one of the first League One players to scout this open market. One scout could do a lot. The college coaches will react very well as long as it does not look poaching. In the end it’s about establishing mutually beneficial contacts. |
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Post by mayland0s on Jan 14, 2024 9:20:31 GMT
A question for orientsc ... If these UK born players are doing well in the college system and MLS, are they paid well? Could Orient afford them? This answer could be a bit tedious, but it may help with an answer for the thread. The short answer is Orient could compete for good college players, but not MLS. The MLS is cost prohibitive. The league minimum salary is $84,000. I would bet that most of the English players make much more than that amount. It would be more trouble than it’s worth to scout these players. The real place for value is in the colleges. A brief rundown of how college works may help here. College players are not directly paid by the schools. The college players at the top level get assistance with college expenses, but every player does not get everything paid. The scholarships are split amongst the players. The full scholarships could be valued at several hundred thousand dollars on average. One important note, though, average students who excel in football can earn admission to the most elite schools in the US through the football program. Schools that field strong football teams include Stanford, Yale and Notre Dame. It’s a foot in the door for kids who would not make it any other way. The orientsc family has this kind of scenario in the back of our minds should everything go well for us. A college player who signs a professional contract loses his or her eligibility to play further in college. That’s the gamble and where the players motivation to play and market forces would matter. Enough money and opportunity has to be offered to get the player to leave college early if the goal is to sign 18 or 19 year olds. The alternative is to scout players who have finished their eligibility. There are plenty of capable players who are 21 who go on to the USL (smaller clubs in the US). The USL pays tiny salaries. There is a gap between the MLS and USL. If a player is not quite at the level of MLS, he falls dramatically in salary potential if he goes to the USL. That is where I think the opportunity is. Many of the English players fail at their academies in England because of injury, or they peak late. College football is growing and imprint in competition level in the US, and these players see this as an option to continue to play and work their way back to a chance for a professional contract. The Orient can easily compete financially for these players who are not quite at the MLS level, but are still capable. I realize that football works very differently here than in the UK. I realize that the general idea there is spot the players when they are young children and develop them. The thinking may be that the college players are too old to get started in England, and that may be true for many. However, few English teams are scouting these players, and I think Orient would have huge advantages as one of the first League One players to scout this open market. One scout could do a lot. The college coaches will react very well as long as it does not look poaching. In the end it’s about establishing mutually beneficial contacts. Hi orientsc . Stupid and obvious question Is do you think the club are fully aware of these opportunities and if not could you inform them ,put them in the picture . I have a friend whose son is now in college in the States on a swimming scholarship. He is ranked about 12th over here but he already has agents sniffing round with huge financial offers to go to other colleges and swim for them in the leagues . |
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Signings
Jan 14, 2024 15:34:19 GMT
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Post by MungO on Jan 14, 2024 15:34:19 GMT
As we're talking about it.. Barnsley have signed a player from the US. Not sure how they've managed to get around employment laws as I don't believe he is a regular for the International Team? www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67969119 |
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Post by orientsc on Jan 14, 2024 15:59:51 GMT
I don’t think your question is stupid or obvious. I am confident that the management team is forward thinking and aggressive, and I am sure they have thought of ways to find players outside of direct competition with the other EFl teams but maybe not the specific college type of player I am talking about. I am not sure if the scouts are part time or full time employees for the club, and the club may have decided to be as efficient as possible with time and money.
I appreciate you thinking I could make a difference with an email, but I am as low on the football totem pole here as a man can be. I coach young players, and have kids playing in our local academy but that is about it. My experience in recruiting is decades old, and solely with American college football. I am the type of football fan that enjoys a beer in a dive bar and a deep dive discussion on football. Boring but passionate. 😁
If I have stumbled upon a good idea, then I hope the smart people from the club who may read these threads may read some college write up coverage, make a simple phone call and see if college coaches would lend a hand. I do think at least the chairman reads this forum based on his comments in the past, and if they have another “q and a” on one of the podcasts then I will definitely ask.
I will say that I am going to look into this idea a little more because I am curious why European teams do not do more of this in the US, and especially for women’s football. We had a combine for the high school girls (group of scouts watching trials of players) that included huge clubs and national teams. lt seems like it would be easy just to tag along a few times to see how it works. I will find a link to show the teams that sent scouts if Mungo thinks that is appropriate. It would be representative of how this all works here.
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